Episode 241 – “Matilda Joslyn Gage: Bringing Her into History, Part II”

This week on CenterStage, Part Two of a lecture by famed historian and feminist Sally Roesch Wagner, profiling forgotten suffrage leader – and freethinker – Matilda Joslyn Gage.

On August 16th and 17th, 2014, the Center for Inquiry presented a conference entitled “Robert Green Ingersoll and the Reform Imperative” at its headquarters in Amherst, New York. This event celebrated Ingersoll, perhaps the best-known unbeliever of America’s Gilded Age. Ingersoll was born in 1833 in Dresden, a village in New York’s Finger Lakes district. The conference placed Ingersoll in context with other freethinking reformers with roots in west-central New York State, such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Frederick Douglass, and Matilda Joslyn Gage.

This week, Sally Roesch Wagner presents the conclusion of “Matilda Joslyn Gage: Bringing Her into History.”

Sally Roesch Wagner is the Founding Director of the Matilda Joslyn Gage Foundation, which in 2010 opened Gage’s Fayetteville, New York, home to the public as an innovative museum. She is the nation’s foremost authority on Gage, and co-founder of the Freethought Trail.

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Welcome to Center Stage. I’m Debbie Goddard director of outreach at the Center for Inquiry today on center stage part two of a lecture by famed historian and feminist Sally Roesch Wagner profiling forgotten suffrage leader and free thinker Matilda Jocelyn Gaige and Adam Tom Flynn, editor of Free Inquiry magazine. 

On August 16th and 17th, 2014, the Center for Inquiry presented a conference entitled Robert Green, Ingersoll and the Reform Imperative at its headquarters in Amherst, New York. 

This event celebrated Ingersol. 

Perhaps the best known unbeliever of America’s Gilded Age, Ingersoll was born in 1833 in Dresden, a village in New York’s Finger Lakes district. 

The conference placed Ingersol in context with other freethinking reformers with roots in west central New York state, such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Frederick Douglass and Matilda Jocelyn Gage. 

In this episode, Center Stage will present the conclusion of the keynote lecture from this one of a kind event. 

Sally Ross Wagner’s presentation wasn’t titled Matilda Jocelin Gaige Bringing Her into History. 

Sally Roche Wagner is the founding director of the Matilda Jocelyn Gage Foundation, which in 2010 opened Gages Fayetteville, New York, home to the public as an innovative museum. She is the nation’s foremost authority on Gaige and co-founder of the Freethought Trail, Sally Roche. 

Wagner’s lecture was sponsored by the New York Council for the Humanities. Speakers in the Humanities program Part two presents the conclusion of her lecture, followed by the audience question period. 

Sometimes when kids come to the Gaige home, I ask them, given this definition, is the civil war over yet there will be no permanent peace until there is. 

Okay, OK, so now we come to the final room in the Gaige home. And generally when people have done the tour, they have a question at this point. OK, here’s a woman who writes about you’ve also learned, didn’t they didn’t you show any room that she supports native sovereignty and treaty rights? She says it is the greatest hypocrisy that the government, which is denying citizenship to women, is trying to force it on Indian men. The better just steal their lands. She understands the concept of Indian sovereignty. 

She also. 

Says justice to the Indians requires living up to the treaties that we have with them. She in 1893 is adopted into the wolf clan of the Mohawk nation. It was there were five different kinds of adoptions, according to Pete Jemison, who’s the director of Ganon again, which is the Iroquois Hourani Shoni State historic site in Victor, right outside of Rochester. If any of you are sticking around, make sure you get to ban on Tigon page, Emison says of five different kinds of adoption. Matilda was adopted in one of the honorary ways of adoption. But the name she was given is a real name. The way we know that is that the clan mothers hold what’s called the bag of names, so they hold the names for that clan and the names never disappear. The names continue. And someone, someone who is occupying that name passes the name, goes back into the bag of names, and it’s taken out again by the clan mother later and used someone else occupies for a while the woman who occupies the name of Gahanna Highway, which I can’t say well, because the Mohawk G or the Mohawk is like a gutteral G, and I don’t do it well. But that name is now held by a woman at Anglo Saxon name, which is the Mohawk nation, one of the nations up in. I right on the Canadian border. And she’s doing extraordinary work in terms of violence against women and children and occupies the name that Cage occupied. I think age would feel extraordinarily honored that she had and name that now is carried by someone doing that work. 

I’m friends on Facebook with the clan and mother of the Wolf Black Book, but eat shit, which I think age also we think is pretty delightful. 

But it was a real adoption and the Wolf clan recognizes it today as an adoption. So, I mean, here’s an adopted Indian who’s a suffragist, who’s a major leader, along with Stanton and Anthony, who is the mother in law of we call her the wonderful mother of yours, because had she not influenced the social justice vision of Elfrink Bond, we might not have the Oz books. And clearly, from what Maude and the family continue to say, if she hadn’t instructed Frank to write those books, we probably wouldn’t have us today. So we have the mother of us, an adopted Indian. Equally important with Stanton and Anthony offers her home is a station on the Underground Railroad. Question often is why don’t I know about her? Why, like Ingersol. Is she not in her history books? Well, let me give you that story. In 1889, Congress came within one vote of creating a Christian nation, one vote. It was really a strong movement. It was a it was sort of a coalition of conservative Orthodox Christians in the Prohibition Party. And that one of the driving forces was the woman’s Christian Temperance Union. Gage sees the president of the WCT U. The Women’s Christian Temperance Union for the first time at that International Council of Women in 1888. Frances Willard and Gage sees this charismatic Christian woman leading an organization of two hundred thousand women. And Gage says this is the most dangerous woman in America. 

Two hundred thousand. 

At its peak, probably the woman’s movement, both of its factions, was about 20000. Says ten times as many women. OK. One of their planks, one of their goals is woman’s suffrage. Frances Willard says she’s got a visitation from God in 1876, saying that she should work for women getting the right to vote in order to put him in the Constitution Center. At one point quipped, you know, isn’t it strange that these people want to put God who nobody’s seen into the Constitution? 

One woman who everybody has seen isn’t even in there. 

She should have said, with the exception of Frances Willard, who apparently has seen God. But so Willard is the president of this organized army of mother love for God, home and country. 

And they want to get the vote for women to create a Christian nation. 

They also want to outlaw alcohol and tobacco completely. 

But the underlying thing of creating a Christian nation, Gage says, is the greatest danger of the hour. And it’s a moment when this really looks like this could happen. Stanton, engaged by this time, have become more and more and more disenchanted with the church. You know, in Stanton, as Melinda said this morning, says the become convinced that the great enemy of woman’s skulks behind the altar is and for 13 years in succession, I’ve traveled this country preaching women’s rights. And the great underlying problem is the religious superstition of women. 

That is the thing that makes it the hardest to win this victory. 

Gage says, you know, every religion that has breathed on the face of the earth has oppressed and it’s responsible for the worst atrocities against humanity. I mean, they are speaking in no uncertain terms. I was performing as Elizabeth Cady Stanton in the Bible Belt Alliance, Nebraska with the Great Plains, Chautauqua and I, you know, did one of stand’s lines. 

The Bible is not the word of God. It was written by man out of his love of domination. 

And at the end, someone in the audience said, well, I listen to you, Mrs. Stanton, and I’ve heard you say all sorts of terrible things about God and religion. Is it possible that you’re a witch? 

Well, you know, that’s a sort of you kind of want to rip the wig off your head and say, she’s said it. 

She said it. I did not deny did it. 

So I that it was interesting because his hiss went up in the audience. 

That’s just stars. 

So had a minute to gather my senses and stay and have a minute to get. 

Well, sir, as you know, which means wise woman, you flatter me with your question. I found out later he was a conservative Orthodox minister and he meant it literally. Fortunately, we left Alliance that night before I was run out of town on a rail. Those words of these women still are striking today. So Susan B. Anthony, at the same time that Stanton and Gage are moving way out here and they’re beginning to say stuff like, you know, the vote is it’s not even half a loaf. It’s a crumb and simply a tool to lift the fourfold oppression of women at the hands of the church, the family, the capitalist in this state. It’s a tool, nothing more. And we’ve got bigger fish to fry. Anthony is single minded. Focus on the vote has been since the early involvement in the movement continues to increasingly come in that direction. And she looks at two hundred thousand potential suffrages in her mouth waters. Behind the scenes, she engineers a merger between the radical and the conservative wings of the movement that brings in the two hundred thousand organized army of mother love. Now, how do you think this merger is going to play out? Is it’s going to continue the radical edge or is that numbers going to just eat up the radical movement? Gage writes to her son and she says, Mrs. Stanton is the Benedict Arnold of our movement. But she is nothing compared to Susan B. who has destroyed our movement. Stanton, she saw as the Benedict Arnold because Gaige initially tried to undo the merger, was unable to do that. And so she went on to form an organization to fight for separation of church and state and to fight the religious orthodoxy that she said was at the foundation of woman’s oppression. Now, Stanton was right there. You know, she said this is the great work of our life. We need to do this now. Anthony dangles the presidency of the combined National American Women’s Suffrage Association in front of her. Stanton, who hates organizations, it hasn’t it doesn’t come to conventions, have very, very seldom attends conventions. And she really doesn’t know what’s going on with the movement. And she says, okay, I’ll take it and I’ll stay in and fight these women internally. She initially says she’ll join Gages organization. And then when confronted with her words by a newspaper reporter, she tosses her fat little sausage curls and says, oh, it was a joke. Gage sees her as the Benedek. Come on. So here’s Gage feeling abandoned by her former allies and seeing the death of the radical movement that she was part of. Now, what happens after 1890, 1890 to 1920? First of all, the first real organized moneyed enemy of woman suffrage appears the liquor industry law. No, you now have women fighting for the right to vote who give us a vote for saying where to do is outlaw liquor. And you don’t think you’re going to rouse an enemy in that? 

Also, Progressive’s, you’re a freethinker thinker in 1890. You see the attempt to create a Christian nation to destroy that wall of separation, danger risks in the woman’s movement. Are you going to support women’s suffrage? Truth is, I think if I had been alive at that time, I would have been an enemy of woman suffrage because like Gaige, I would have seen the greatest danger of being a destruction of that wall of separation. 

If that wall goes, Gaige said, it doesn’t matter who votes, Stanton said. 

I would rather live under a government in which women did not have the vote than to live under a government in which women have the vote and they use that vote to destroy religious liberty. This is not your usual suffrage story, is it? This is the painful story of how the movement was killed in 1890. It focused exclusively on the vote. Increasingly, after 1890, after the merger, all the other issues that they were raising from equal pay to equal work to every issue of of job equality to violence against women. In 1893, gages book women, church and state. She exposes that Catholic priests are sexually abusing children. And she says this is endemic in the power that the priesthood is given as direct agents of God incapable of sin. She does this mean going on since the beginning of the church? And as long as that power exists, it will continue to happen. And she writes about something she calls sex trafficking. It’s going on in the United States, she says. And she describes where it’s happening. I gave that to Gloria Steinem, who a friend to read at a trafficking conference. She read it. People didn’t tell her before winter where you know who anything about it. And they wanted to know the newspaper article. Florea calls her the woman who is ahead of the women who are ahead of our time. So Matilda Jocelyn Gage drops out of the movement. And as this movement becomes more and more conservative, she’s an embarrassment. This Indian lover, this, you know, supporter of total freedom for African-Americans. This freethinker. This is not the image that we want to have of the women’s movement. And so Gaige gets written out not by male historians, don’t I wish I could say that. No. She gets written out by her sisters, the conservative Christian women that take over the woman’s. This is a woman who gave her historic life to maintain the separation of church and state. So I invite you to visit the Matilde Jocelin Gage home in Fayetteville, New York. And I will tell you, I leave you with one last story. 

And I really thought about it when today when Cody was talking about how, you know, the outreach that they were doing in Iowa to to engage the people with different views. 

It was a way to really open a dialog. 

Well, we decided to create dialog as the language of the Matilda Jocelyn Engaged Center, and we thought about different dialogs that we might start with. And we took some quotes from Gage. One was related to same sex marriage, which really wasn’t directly same sex marriage, but it was very applicable to the issues going on today. Another one was for economic justice and the third one that we tested out and we’ve ran some tests on these three dialog issues. The third one was gages, quote, For a woman to birth an unwanted child is a crime against the mother and a sin against the soul of the child. That’s the one we ended up having as our first official dialog at the Matilda Justin Gage Center. And we didn’t think very much of it, except that the international coalition of sites of conscience, which very eagerly gave us a grant. And I said, whoa, you know where this little museum in upstate New York that has almost no funding? Why are you so eager to help us write this grant so we can get it through the international committee that’s gonna be reading it? They said because you are the first museum in the country, as far as we know, that has ever taken on the issue of reproductive rights in a dialog. So. This is the kind of work that you do under the inspiration of a free thinker. Thank you. Do we have time for some questions, Tom? You bet. OK. 

Yes, hi. Thank you for this great talk. It was wonderful. You know, I’m already a fan of Matildas. 

I have a question. First of all, what’s the availability? Some of the other sources that you mentioned of her writings and and the different meetings she went to. And second, I think I heard that Susan B. Anthony was like viscerally against abortion. Is that true? And is that one of the reasons she wrote Matilda out? 

Let let me answer the first thing or the second question first. And the first. And the second. No. The first question, actually, people are going to think that I paid you to ask that question. We didn’t talk about this before. This is all unsullied. OK. The abortion one is one that is very close to my heart because one of the things that’s happened is that religious orthodox. 

Anti choice people are now claiming suffrage. Suffered just as anti-abortion foremothers. Have you all heard this? It is totally fabricated. Bad history. Now, let me tell you a quote from Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Every child born should be a wanted child. They took Anthony and Stanton took money from a racist, probably misogynist man when they were really pissed off at the antislavery movement, which should have funded their newspaper, The Revolution, and didn’t. And so they said, OK, we’re going over to the enemy. We’ll take money from whoever give it to us. Now, whether George Francis train is the one who is responsible for the anti abortion statements in the revolution, which was the newspaper that Stanton and Anthony no bad history that Stanton and Parker Pillsbury, we do not want to write the men who were supporters out of history. Right. Stanton and Parker Pillsbury edited the revolution. And Anthony was the publisher. OK, and in these news in this newspaper that was funded by the racist George Francis train, there are anti abortion articles. Can’t attribute any of them definitively to either Stanton or Anthony. And I mean, you can read a lot of this stuff on the Internet because Stanton historians have really worked with this and so have Anthony historians. OK. Abortion, if we take it out of the issue of a moral process and look at it as a purely medical procedure. This is a time when women had absolutely no control over their own bodies. OK. Husbands decided what would happen to a woman’s body. Abortion was a dangerous medical procedure. Now, put that together and think about whether the right to abortion makes sense in that context. You see what I’m saying? I mean, it’s a dangerous medical procedure that a man can force you to have. It wasn’t an issue of is abortion a good idea or not? It was a question of should a woman have absolute control of her body and stand and talked about body sovereignty, that a woman should be the absolute sovereign of her own body? Absolutely. Making all the decisions for herself. Gage believed the same thing. Anthony, there is a letter that she wrote when her sister in law has an abortion. It looks like it was an abortion. It looks like she’s being critical of it. But that’s Anthony, I think. Anthony, let’s just say, is not the strongest. She’s the best known. OK, it’s late at night. Can I say something really offensive? You want to know my theory of history? Two words. Shit rises. 

Thank you. Thank you for indulging me. I don’t think I’ve ever said that publicly before. You freethinkers, you just bring out, you know, the truth telling. No, I think you know what? 

You get what I’m after with this is that we are fed a history of disempowerment. If we’re fed the history that the issue of a woman’s right to her own body has been a volatile, feminist, fraught issue for over a hundred years, that the reason that women in the United States did not have birth control for a 100 year period was not because there was no technology by 1850 condoms. I founded eighteen thirty six. Physiology is a birth control thing, and it describes not a diaphragm. It describes a cervical cap. You know, the difference between the two cover the diagram. Diaphragm. You know, the diaphragm covers a whole lot of territory. The cervical cap covers the cervix. It’s a really highly I don’t even know if it’s been approved in the US. I know it wasn’t about 20 years ago, but it’s a really effective form of birth control if used with a spermicide. Both them pretty non of a invasive. They were developed before 1850. And so was the condom safe, effective forms of birth control. You know why we didn’t hem for a hundred years? 

Comstock The Comstock laws obscenity, the arrest in 1878 and all the people that followed arrested under the Comstock Act for helping women stop reproduction. The religious right is the reason, and Comstock Gage, when she issues her woman, church and state consort, threatens to put her in prison and he threatens to put anybody who lets young people see that book in prison. He calls it tales of lust. Apparently, descriptions of priesthood sexually abusing children is a tale of lust in vision of Anthony Comstock. So she thinking that she’s probably going to be arrested like Bennett, like a whole lot of freethinkers, like a whole lot of birth control advocates. 

She’s asked by a reporter her opinion of Anthony Comstock. Now, think about it. What are you going to do in that moment? Or you can sort of go. Well, I have no stay men or whatever. Now, she says a fool is a press. Censor is worse than a knave. Anthony Comstock is a combination of the two. Buddha said that the one great sin is ignorance. If that’s the case, Anthony Comstock is a great sinner. 

So this is a woman with some courage. So I think and I’m speaking now on behalf of of the women historians that have really studied this, that it is fabricated. The attempt is to undo Roe v. Wade based on historic precedent, because the first part of it is the end of the ruling, the Roe v. Wade ruling that legalized abortion under some conditions in the US, that it it’s coming again. Is it? Is there a pattern here? Is anybody noticing? So. So the attempt one of the thoughts is that it’s an attempt to try to have Roe v. Wade reversed because the historic precedent, part of Roe v. Wade says that this is an issue that has been fought for a long time. You know, that suffragists, the 19th century women’s movement and so on, they have created an alternative intellectual universe seriously. They have created scholars, publishing companies, journals that are creating this artificial world of anti choice suffrages, myths. It’s astonishing and it’s frightening. So that’s the first question. The second question, the sources. This is what I should have paid you for, and I’ll pay you under the table later. But actually, I’ve stepped down as the founder of the or that the director of the Matilda Jocelyn Gage Foundation. And I’m working now on another project in partnership with the foundation, which is to digitize and make available to all of you. All of Matilda Jocelin gages writings in a totally you know, you cut and paste it, you pull it out, you use it in any way. You want it in a way that is interactive, because we’re going to ask people to respond to gages, writings and to to post what they’re doing with the writing. So it’ll be a conversation, a dialog. And if any of you are interested in that, you know, get in touch with me. I’d love to. One of the things that we’re that we’re thinking about doing is crowdsourcing it so that if you’re interested in some writing of Gaige, I’ll send you some of her writing. You transcribe it and then, you know, you’re the author of that on the Web site. And and we bring Gage into the world digitally with all of our effort. So if any of you are interested, do please get in touch with me. 

That was a long answer to your question. Any other questions? Briefly, just make a connection with Ingersoll’s. Oh, Tom Flynn. And I. I can’t tell you how many communications back and forth the number of emails we almost have the smoking gun. We almost found the smoking gun. And of at this point, we don’t have them at a Freethought convention at the same time. We know that they hung out with the same people. And Steve at dinner gave me yet one more connection, which is Marella record, who is a friend of Gauger, you know, a coworker with Gaige, who is another Ingersol protegé, as was Helen Gardner and Helen Gardner. 

Is that it didn’t Steve did. Is Steve here? Yeah. Did you say that he wrote the preface to her book, to Helen Gardner’s book? 

Yeah, I think that’s so and and so and reviews that in her newspaper, The National Citizen Ballot Box. So we’re getting close to a smoking gun. They they knew the same people. They ran in the same circles. And at some point when the chronology goes back up, Will will identify she was at this convention and so is Ingersol. I mean, there’s correspondence between Stanton and Ingersol. But and Steve and I are going to do a research trip to the Library of Congress and see if we can find any gauge letters in the Ingersol collection. 

You’ve all been terribly patient, so thank you, I know now why Frank Baum made his protagonist a little girl as opposed to a little boy. But then I found myself wondering, given his rootedness here, why Kansas? 

Oh, Matilda, Jewel Gage. I got into this whole thing because he is because Matilda Jocelyn Gages granddaughter was a friend of my mom’s. And I grew up knowing none of this in Aberdeen, South Dakota, walked by Matilda Jewel Gages house every day on my way to school. And it wasn’t until I was teaching in women’s studies in California, a colleague was doing research on the South Dakota campaign of 1890. Said, Did you ever hear of a woman named Matilda Gage? She had some connection to Aberdeen. Well, yeah. Her family was there. Frank and Maude Barlow moved there. Her daughter Ellen and her. Her son Clark, who was Matilda Jewel Gages father. So, you know, all got this knowledge anyway. So Matilda Jewell Gage, who was the niece of L. Frank Bohm, the granddaughter of Matilda, Jocelyn Gage, said, well, Uncle Frank made it in Kansas because the family was in South Dakota and he didn’t want to embarrass us. 

So that’s best I. Yes. 

Hey, everybody, so I’m here to do my obligatory reminder about the bookstore. But again, it’s for your own good because I’m a humanist and I care about you because we’re all going to be on a bus tomorrow. 

Well, you’re gonna be in a bus. 

I’m gonna be in a Toyota about an hour ahead of you cause you’ll want water when you get there, but you’re not gonna have another chance to buy anything from the bookstore. 

So if you’ve been holding off for whatever reason, this is you this evening after the talk is your chance to do that. 

And I just restocked all the Matilda the Gauge books. So we have a nice stash for and for our of the the women church and state. 

Do you have woman, church and state in store? I do, but I only have about twelve of them because there’s more than twelve of you. Oh no. 

Okay. So yes. So we’ll be doing that for you. But we also have the other stuff. If you anything, you want to get it now. But I actually did have a question. 

Oh. Also, we don’t want to neglect to tell them that you also have copies of my book, Sisters in Spirit. Of course. Sorry to show any influence on women’s rights. We practice this for three hours and clearly I dropped the ball. 

When you’re talking about this betrayal of Stanton and Anthony against Gage when they kind of went in cohorts with the the Women’s Temperance Union. It breaks my heart to think what that meant to Gage and how that would have affected her. And I was just curious what happened after that. If it’s the kind of thing she ever got over, were they ever able to reestablish a friendship? Is it like Jefferson and Adams, who in their later years sort of came to an understanding with one another? Was that a bitter thing? Did she get over it? Did she have another support network that she was able to kind of keep her through that a little bit? 

That’s a that’s a great question. And here’s here’s the strange answer to sort of remember back to when Maude announces to her mom that she’s marrying Frank Bomb and her mom explodes and then laughs in quick succession. Frank was introduced to what Matilda Jewel Gage told me was that Jocelyn temper, quick to anger, quick to forgive 1895 when Elizabeth Cady Stanton asks Gage if she will help her write the woman’s Bible, Gage agrees. Five years later, she goes back to the Benedict Arnold. Yeah, it’s it. She’s really furious in that moment. And and I mean, can you imagine you dedicate 50 years of your life to a cause and then you see it take the opposite path. I mean, the heartbreak of that, she writes. The next year to a friend in a sort of. Do you have any idea what went on? Who was there? What happened? You know, she wants to know these people that she’s worked with all these years. What’s going on? Parker Pillsbury writes to someone and says he is furious with the way gages been treated because she becomes very quickly the pariah. Anthony forbids anybody to attend Gages Convention. And Anthony is really, you know, she’s out to here. That’s it. And but but Stanton, I think because Gage sees the larger picture, which is, you know, beyond my ego, beyond my pain. We have got to fight this church. And so she agrees, you know. This is just so. Stanton asks her to quit it with her. And then Stanton. Takes the coffee right out in the woman’s Bible, in her name alone. Gages on the revising committee. So she has screwed twice. Anthony, I don’t know. In 1897, Anthony is in Chicago, where Gage is living with Frank and Maud Bomb. And every winter she goes and spends the winter with them for the last 14 years of her life after her husband dies and Anthony visits Gaige. We don’t know what happened. She doesn’t talk about her diary. There’s no letters, no correspondence that say what went on. Gage didn’t have a diary. If she did, it’s gone. So all we have is just this entry. That is just it’s very, very true. 

Something I saw Mrs. Gage, and there’s no indication that they’re seeing each other before then. In the seven years that have elapsed since the merger went through in 1890, and then Gage dies in March of 1898 and this is like four months later. But she has penned a speech to be given at the National American Woman Suffrage Association convention. And it’s delivered by Anna Shaw. Anna Howard Shaw. This is the fiftieth anniversary of Seneca Falls. So whether Anthony said to her, would you write something? Is one of the pioneers. Gage didn’t enter the movement in 48. She entered it in 52 at the Syracuse National Convention, which is also when Anthony entered the movement. So they entered the movement together. But whether Anthony ask her to and they, you know, had a a coming back together and Gage agreed to write a speech for this merged organization that she had refused to be part of. I don’t know. History leaves us with all these unanswered questions. 

That’s the best I know. 

Thank you. 

We have heard part two of Sally Wagoner’s presentation. Matilde Jocelin Gage bringing her into history. Concluding center stage is coverage of the Ingersol conference held at Elmhurst, New York, in August of 2014. 

The original recording was engineered by Monica Harmsen. The music was by Adam Fields. Postproduction was by Inquiry Media Productions. 

This has been episode two hundred forty one. Visit us again on center stage. 

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